Relating to Self

Relating to self. A podcast that helps you create a better relationship with yourself.

Hey, I'm Joachim, welcome. Do you realize that there is only one relationship that you will always be in? The relationship with yourself. Improving that relationship changes everything. On this podcast, I share my thoughts and I invite real people to have vulnerable conversations about how they relate to themselves and what we can learn from that. Anne Loren, welcome to the Relating to Self podcast. Finally. Yes, this one has been a while that I've been asking you to be on here. I think you were on my very first list of people I wanted to have on a podcast.

When I started. And here we are. It's been three years. Almost. Yeah. Wow. So who are you?

Just for a starter. Yeah, just like to to give people some context, you know, for the conversation. Can you ask me a different question? Like more? Can you ask me a better question? Yeah, sure. Well, the longer version of this question is something like, how would you introduce yourself to the audience of this podcast?

Oh, I can do that. So I just ate a great meal with you.

And that feels relevant, feels really relevant. We just ate the most delicious brunch. So I'm a person who really likes to thoroughly enjoy food to the last corner of possible experience. And I'm also increasingly less shy to call myself a poet. Nice. I like that. So. For a bit more context, we also used to date. Well, a couple of years back. And so this is also interesting. It's a very different feeling from interviewing just a random person.

Well, they're never random, but some of the people I don't know at all. And with you, that's very different. How's it? Tell me about it. Well, there's a sense of familiarity. And I feel like we've been having these kinds of conversations since forever, since we knew each other. For three years. Forever. Yes. So I'm really curious how this is going to go. Yeah, I feel it feels really sweet to have you here with me in this way.

Also, for context, we're doing this live in my living room in Berlin right now. And I've only done a couple of these podcast recordings in person. Yeah. And that feels wonderful as well. So let's dive into it.

Can I say more about it? Yeah, sure. Go for it. Okay. I think I'm now warmed up enough to make myself legible. I have to make games. I feel like maybe like an important part of my being. And I'm also like the poet thing is kind of important, not necessarily because of the poetry, but because of like the process of turning direct experience into like effing the ineffable, like turning direct experience into something into a reference point for another person to relate to. That feels like a big part of my consciousness effort. That's beautiful.

I really like that framing. And I would agree. I think you're exceptionally good at that. Yeah. And we're here to talk about how you relate to yourself. Yeah. My first question is always the same. When you hear the words relating to self, what does that mean to you?

Or what comes up? Man, I could have thought about this earlier, right? I knew that this would happen.

I've been waiting. What do I think about relating to self? Okay. So I think that there's this changing experience of being over time. Like in the three decades I've been on earth, just this experience of being has changed so drastically so many times that there's a sense that whatever this reference point of self is, it's quite malleable. It's quite contextual. It's very much something that I can relate to. Like it's not happening to me. Not really. There's some agency in how I relate to the experience of being. I think it's funny because I think relating to self and relating to everything is the same thing.

The thing that relating to self points at for me is the question of how do I relate to universe and existence? That's quite deep. That sounds like a lot. I think it's mostly just because relating to self is like relating to consciousness or relating to the experience of having consciousness. And that happens to just be all the things.

Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I like that perspective. And it also feels like it's very maximalist in its approach. And so I'd love to drill down a bit more into the specifics of, for example, the way that it has evolved over time, right?

Because you say it's quite malleable. And so I'm curious how your experience of the self or your relationship with yourself has evolved through time, and maybe also why or how? This is a hard question, man. Part of me is like, this is too big of a question. It makes me want to draw a diagram or something and give you a little personal history of existence, of being me on earth. And I do think, so maybe I'll just talk without thinking. I think maybe that's going to be more. I think there's something about depression. I think depression is just a very mind-altering experience and humbling in a way. I think for me, that was like a very, it definitely just like really, I think it put like relating to self on the map. I think before depression, I just thought I'm a coherent thing.

And then with depression, I was like, what the fuck? I can just fall out of the world. I can just end up in a cognitive, in kind of like a ongoing mental state that is so unlike anything I've experienced before, that whatever self referred to doesn't make sense anymore. Like this thing that I am now is not the thing I was before. And they don't even know how to relate to each other.

Kind of like chasm of experience. And then also like moving out of it again and back into it, like this back and forth between like really intense different mental states.

I think really, what is it? Put some spicy sauce into relating to self, my friend. Yeah. I think that's like one interesting part. I think there's more to say about this, but there's other things in the mix. I think a lot of my exploration of like relating to self happens in like relating to other people, just because they're so good at bringing shit up or in having me notice how different I am around different people and also how I'm sometimes quite similar across people in similar situations. There's like a kind of, I don't know, across people in similar situations, there's like a kind of multi-perspective looking at myself from different angles and then untangling from there. Using that as like a rich sourcing ground of finding the gold pots at the end of a trigger. Yeah. I find it interesting to think about also knowing people for a longer time and kind of seeing how that changes my perception of them.

And also kind of what stays the same, if anything, right? I think I haven't really known you long enough to have that kind of perspective on who you are. But earlier this week, I met someone who I hadn't seen for, I think, almost 15 years. And it was a really interesting experience to go into that meeting or re-meeting that person and kind of noticing how everything has changed in her life, in my life, who we are as people. But at the same time, there was a recognition. There was something like, ah, yes, there is something in this person that I recognize as being uniquely them. And it's almost like an emotional resonance of sorts. It's not something cognitive. It's just like a feeling I have around this person. And so I'm curious if this is something you've experienced as well.

I love that question. I love the thing that it points at. I am...should I talk about this? I think that there's like maybe, I think there's like one thing in the past years that did really change my relationship to self or relationship to consciousness. And it was in dating the person that I currently don't date anymore. And in relationship with him, being introduced to energy work, which I found so woo and like implausible. And then he just like invited me to pretend that like that's a thing. And I think what I really appreciated about it was a kind of tuning into a different layer of my own experience. And in that layer, like something that's pre-thinking something that's pre-thought often pre-image. It almost felt like going in the kind of like the layers of possible experience, going like closer to the original impulse before thought has happened or before, as we talked about, like before story has been added to it. And then from there, kind of like acting and dancing without needing to understand.

And something about that felt so freeing, like mostly because I recognized that whatever is happening, there's like quite wise and inspired and I don't really need to worry about it. Maybe also relating to our brunch conversation, like daring non-doing, like finding ways of being with myself, being with the world, being with other people where I sense, respond, dance, interact, but without needing to think things through and with a kind of trust that even without thinking things true, like through the thing that happens actually is quite, I stand by it. I look at it and I'm like, this was good. I like this person that I'm discovering myself to be.

Yeah, I like that. I think a lot of what is, what makes us human happens pre-thought. And then we make up stories about them afterwards. But I'm curious how you think about my more recent exploration of the self as a multitude in terms of we are incredibly complex ecosystems of all kinds of different organisms. Like our bodies are just made up of so many different kinds of parts, different organs, different kinds of sorts of cells. And then literally also even cells that don't really belong to us, like the gut microbiome, stuff like that. And I've been reading a lot about how specifically the gut, for example, influences us by sending certain chemicals to the brain that then make us act in certain ways, because that's what the gut bacteria want, something like that. And so I've kind of come away from this idea that we are a singular thing, that there is such a thing as self, as in like, you know, this is me. And we are a very complex multitude of different processes that maybe all have their own desires or drives or impulses or whatever you want to call it. And so for me, and so for me, that's similar almost to something like internal family systems, as in like the psychology of myself is a collection of a persona that I have created throughout the years who served certain purposes that I'm now kind of like relating to. And so similarly, I feel even in our physical body, in our biology, in how we are in the world, that's probably also true, there is also a multitude.

And for a while, I was then interested in kind of like trying to figure out when when I say something like I want X or Y, what is the I that is wanting? Right? Which part of the process is that? So I'm curious if you've thought about yourself in terms of the physicality of the different processes. And when you say listening to these impulses, like, do you have an inkling where these impulses come from? Or doesn't it matter at all? Or like, you know, what's your relationship to that kind of thought? Okay, I'm gonna give I'm gonna reply to this like not as like a perfectly fitting reply, but kind of like an slightly angular adjacent thing. Beautiful. Um, I had this conversation with Hanin Ast a few weeks ago. And I realized that I have this like, I don't quite know where I picked it up or how I came up with it.

But I have this like, internal organizational scheme of my experience, where I noticed different postures. And a posture is not quite an IFS part, not quite like an internal family system coherent part. But it's not completely unlike that. But it's more of like, almost like a physical pattern, like a holding pattern.

Wait, when you say physical pattern? Yeah, like, okay, so if you dance, if you're on the dance floor, and you watch other people dance, sometimes you for a second, it's almost like they're possessed by something. For a second, you see something, and then that's a thing. And maybe you can't name it, they can't name it, but you might be able to mimic it, you might be able to put it in your body by watching them. It's similar if you see if you get the hug from someone, like someone gives you a hug, and the hug is just wise in some way, like something about the hug is like inspired. And by receiving the hug a single time, you are now a keeper of the hug.

If you try, you can find the hug in you. So something has been passed on. And I think something about this thing that gets passed on is what I call a posture. And I think a posture is not quite like, often it's, I guess it's like kind of like a way of being that's very small, like very precise and nuanced. And often like just a flicker, it is something that passes super fast. And I've been wondering, I'm like, maybe this is like what acting is all about.

Maybe actors are just like collectors of postures. I don't know.

Here's the thing though. I'm gonna circle back to like what your question thought was.

Can you remind me? Yeah, the idea of the self as a multitude, not just psychologically in like IFS parts, but also from our physical bodies. Yeah. So I think that the self is like, um, like a big bag of different patterns of tension and relaxation. Love that. Yeah. And they contain like, incredibly precise information that partially isn't mine. It might have been something I've never experienced. I picked it up on the street. I walked past someone and they were tense in some way. And I somehow learned how to be tense in that way.

And now I have this like, other thing in me like a little, yeah. And I think this, and so I think for me, there's like a certain, almost like a curatorial relationship to self. And there's two, at least two different directions that takes. One of them is like a delightful collection, like walking through the world and watching someone be inspired and God kissed and trying on what, what this posture is and what it feels like slipping into it. Um, seeing if I like it and then putting it into like the gigantic costume closet of possible possibilities.

That's just to choose from. And as I moved through the world, like kind of like trusting wise impulse to pick the right posture in each moment to meet what the world brings. I really like this idea of posture. I've never heard this before. At first I thought, Oh, it's something similar to archetypes perhaps, but then it doesn't feel that way. What comes up for me when I hear you speak about this is something like, it's almost like a, an embodied meme.

Yes, that's it. And an archetype is bigger. An archetype is a collection of postures with stories, with interpretation. Exactly. Yes. So I love this, this visual idea of like the, the library of postures. And I now imagine that you gallivant through the world, actually hunting or like maybe catching those postures with a little butterfly net or something. How have you learned to pay attention to this specific idea in other people? Because that sounds, it's so poetic and so kind of like small and nuanced that I wonder how you were able to focus your attention there. I almost want to say something like, but you know me, why do I need to explain this? That's beautiful.

It's probably true, but I would love you to actually make it explicit. Um, yeah, it's really interesting. I think this has also been like a long exploration and I think there's like a lot of learning in the exploration because for a long time I was very focused on the other person. Like, um, we talked about this also over brunch, the difference between like doing and non-doing in relationship or like, uh, and I think a lot of my doing in relationship was like an attempt to make things safe. Know where another person is at, so I don't need to vigilantly monitor, to vigilantly monitor, so I don't need to vigilantly monitor, to appease, so I can relax. Um, very exhausting and also controlling and unfree, um, restrictive. And I think over time I, um, tried to find a way to take my consciousness out of the other person, almost like it's a moving point and I can, uh, what is it like stop living in their body and arrive back in my own body, knowing that my body knows their body anyway, without any doing. And I, I think, I think that this is like, um, I think the question of how I do this is, is so long and old. It is as long and old as I am and that's so inexplicable. It requires a deep need to know what people around me feel that is kind of heartbreaking in some ways and a blessing in others. And then it requires lots of poetry to find ways to make all of this overwhelming input, um, processable, digestible, shareable, relatable, sacred, to find beauty in it.

Yeah, that really moves me. Yeah, that really moves me. I recognize, not the words because you put things in words in a way that nobody else can, but I think I recognize this coping mechanism, I would call it, right? Um, and so that touches me when you put it this way. I think that most of the past years I've just been trying to find out what to do with it. Like, um, and I see this, maybe, I think maybe this is one of the things that we also connect over. Like, what do you do if you happen to just be like inappropriately sensitive, like not quite built for the world?

And I think both of us find our own ways with it. And, can I tell you a bit about my way?

Please, that's why we're here. Because I think a really big part of it is just to notice tension. Um, and I think that's been like so much of what the past years have been about to just notice, uh, holding intention and contraction and letting it go. And with that also repeatedly letting go of shit that ain't my shit. And I remember my friend saying this, um, recognizing in myself little like, uh, pockets of karma that isn't my own. And giving it back to the like universal cosmic postal system with the request to please bring it to the right address, which is not me. Does this also refer to what I would call intergenerational trauma? Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious about something you said earlier, um, that I would love to know more about.

And that's this energy work that you mentioned, right? Because I am very much like a skeptic, I would say, when it comes to the Wu side of things. And I think you are too, or at least in the conversations we've had, that's kind of like what I got from that. And I'm really curious in which specific ways your relationship with yourself has changed because of the openness that you've described and kind of like, let's pretend this exists for a while, right? Um, so yeah, what, what was the, the quality that changed in this relationship with yourself because of that? So I think maybe the first thing is something about like thought versus experience. I think that here again, there's like a, if I try to understand what's going on, then, um, I think my response is a kind of skepticism and that skepticism, like keeps me out of the experience. And then if I pause the thought and I step into the experience, something very obvious happens. And it's, I have no theory for it. I care not about the theory for it because I do not think that the theory would inform my experience in a way that would add a lot to it without kicking me out of it. And I don't want that.

So I think on occasion, choosing not to attempt to understand is quite helpful. Also with other people, you know, just like being like, I don't have a fucking clue what is going on with you, but I don't need to. Cause I see it or in some way, I kind of like feel it. And then on the kind of like experience side of things, the thing that it opened me up to is, um, I think it moved my processing of reality out of my head into like all of my body. It, it just like made me a lot more familiar and at ease with my own intuition. And also with like a kind of speaking from that place. Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. I love this idea of making sense of the world through the whole body, not just through the mind. That feels quite similar to what I'm attempting to do through different means, I guess.

How do you relate to your physicality, the body? Do you have like physical practices that help you ground yourself in that reality, the flesh? Oh man, this is really, it's like a fun question to ask me today. I think, um, it's just really hard not to like, not to just like, I think about like sex and oysters and then I, and then there's a part of me that's like, but Anne, it is very good for you to do sport. But the thing that actually comes up is like sex and oysters. And I think in oysters, there's like a kind of, like a, and this is not just oysters, this is also like sunshine, lemon slices, a friend's really soft skin. Um, sunlight through trees, like many beautiful things that have the same kind of quality, but there's something about like a kind of, actually almost like a kind of like an emptying of self or like an unselfing, like a, surrender of this holding point and like a pouring myself into a reality that isn't, that isn't this body mind thing, but something very outside of it.

And then like very easily expansive. So almost like kind of like a sensuality is like a, um, like, yeah, it's like a way of transcending into, yeah, okay.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I hear you. This, this approach of like bringing yourself to the experience of the body through the senses. It's a very sensory, sensual exploration, it sounds like. And what I'm curious about then is because the, the examples you give, right, the oysters, the sunshine, the soft skin of a friend, all these things are loaded with like positive stories. And I'm curious if you can extend that kind of awareness or sensitivity to just sensations, like whatever they are, right? It's not just the beautiful things that we all know are beautiful, but maybe also the, the mundane or even the things we usually label as negative. Can you bring yourself to also experience those as sensations, just that sensory input?

How many people? I don't know.

Not that many. Um, okay.

So I think there's a couple of things that come to mind. The first is, I remember, um, I found this therapeutic modality, like maybe two or three years ago. And the basic premise is, um, to notice body states while triggered without any doing, like a completely, and also like not sending love or shit like that.

Like just nothing, you just notice it. And I kind of dug it and played around with it. And at some point it became like very intuitive and delicious. And there was something about, uh, noticing body states in, while triggered. And it began to almost feel like, what is it? Like the, the tension thing, the triggered tension thing as like a concrete volume or shape with like a particular texture. And I can come into contact with it. And it slurps me up. And spits me out and it's done. So something about this kind of sensuality, that's quite present with my own experience in a way that takes things I'd label as really uncomfortable and lets them do themselves within me.

Um, like a kind of surrender. And it's really helped by the experience that it's often incredibly fast. Like it's like three seconds of mind shaking despair. And then I'm like, just kind of chill. And I think part of, part of what helped with this at some point, I might want to cut this.

That makes me really curious. That's just always what happens. Okay. Um, yeah, feel free. With kink. Oh. Um, and just like very, what is it?

How do you say? Like, just like staying with very intense physical experience and noticing that it's not really unpleasant or there's like a kind of like a repulsion or like a moving away that I can just like go off. And then what's actually happening is intense, interesting, strange. Sometimes quite glorious, sometimes a bit confusing, but like, like there's a layer of experience behind the initial response, which is mostly like a story. And the actual experience is quite different. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I've been reading earlier this week from a psychologist whose name I don't remember right now. Something about how the mind finds comfort and safety in whatever is known. So it's not about, does it feel good?

Does it feel bad? Is it actually healthy or not? None of that matters.

It's just like, this is known. This is a state that the mind experiences a lot. So it feels safe in that. And I think what you're saying now is related as in you're opening up to an unfamiliar experience that at first sight, the mind might label as uncomfortable or not nice, because it's not familiar. So it's not because of the nature of the experience itself. It's more just of the story of like, we're not used to this, so we should not have this. And I think there is a lot of value in reexamining the box we've built for ourselves, or that the mind has built for us, as to what is it that we feel comfortable with. And I've experienced before in my life that the thing I actually felt safe in was actually pretty fucking toxic and unhealthy. And then it's strange how much effort it requires to step out of that, even though you see it clearly, right? So I'm curious if your experience of what you describe as kink, this sinking in or accepting or surrendering to experiences, has helped you maybe also overcome these kind of barriers or blocks to improving your life in meaningful ways that wouldn't have been possible without that surrender?

Can you repeat the question? Yeah, sure. So the idea is that the mind kind of is attached to certain states. Just the last bit, I got like the whole, the long spiel.

I just want the last sentence. Yeah. Well, basically, has your experience of kink or surrendering to those difficult experiences that then become just an experience? Yeah. Has that helped you in maybe rewiring or reframing certain states of being that you had in your life that you maybe saw as unhealthy or toxic or not nice? And then that surrender to kink maybe helped you step into a new reality? Yeah, totally. I think it's also this is less about kink. This is like more of like an exploration and I think many different shapes, but I like many different forums. Something about, I thought about this, I had this like, how do I approach this?

How do I make this talkable? I think another thing that I think of sometimes is thresholds, because I think, and I think a threshold is kind of creepy because we are discontinuous with ourselves and we pretend not to be. Because it's because of this like desire to have things clear, to not be confused. And so there's something scary about thresholds and thresholds could be very small, like leaving a room, changing the pace of a conversation, breaking a particular vibe between two people, letting an uncomfortable or comfortable experience overtake you. And so there's something about like a pre-threshold resistance. And I began to think that at any moment, and this is kind of like, what is it, this is like my very own personal woo, so you're welcome, that at any moment, I'm on both sides of the threshold already. I'm on this side and the other side. And I imagine that the me on the other side, which is different and the same, beckons me because she knows that I'll be fine. And also, she knows of the lust of it, she knows of the lust that is to have crossed the threshold. And I think the lust is like the beginning of curiosity, like having become just familiar enough with it, just safe enough with it, that you can enjoy, that you don't understand what is happening and pour yourself into it. And so there's this, like creating this micro-continuity throughout a discontinuity of a threshold, the kind of trust that something persists, that it's not this me, but a me that is of like a more ongoing nature.

And it really helped with this breakup. I really, like I felt so grateful for this, because I think in the past, experiences of like drastic discontinuity, like a breakup, really fucked me up. And this time, it just felt like it was threshold after threshold, and with each one, there was nothing to do but to let it take me, let it eat me, and follow its marching orders, like do what it tells me to do, cry, scream.

Mourn, flirt, delight. So this, again, is about non-doing, it's not doing the threshold, but just letting it pull you. I really like that, this resistance to crossing the thresholds sounds to me a lot like attachment. Like the idea of being attached, again, to a thought or a state, but then like in micro-moments, right? Like I'm attached to being in this room and crossing the door to the other room is an unknown somehow.

And then, yeah. But I love this idea of there being a you who's already on the other side, like pulls you in.

That's so beautiful. This is also, I think that there's something about lust in it for me that was really important to discover. And I discovered it first in the context of rage and anger and annoyance and frustration, like this very subtle feeling of being kind of frustrated with someone. And I just felt how much lust there is in that. And I think the lust in it is also just something about coming into contact with reality, like coming into contact with a reality that is not as I wish it to be. And then seeing that there's this one way of relating to it, which is frustration, but in the frustration, in that this is not what I thought it would be, there already is a lust, like I'm surprised by life.

I'm broken out of my idea of what this would be. Yeah, I like this. It sounds a lot like one of my basic frameworks that I use as in there's only tension and release and tension is created by desiring what isn't. It's very simple kind of framework. You have a much more elaborate and beautiful and very poetic version of what amounts to more or less the same, I think. I'm curious if there is anything that is still particularly difficult for you in your relationship with yourself. Yeah, I think there is. I think there's something about, I think there was like a point of discontinuity in my life around when I was 24. Before that, I was very capable of relating to structure or society, or LinkedIn. I was very capable of making myself do things.

And then I just shatteringly broke out of that. What happened was kind of like getting soaked in experience, which was really important. But also, it's been a long way back to relating to structure in a way that's not oppressive and sincere. And it feels relieving to see that there's some progress, but damn, is it a long road. I think this is a challenge that I think a lot of people might share. But it also feels like a particular, what is it? It feels very much like, I sometimes think about this and like, oh, I think a lot of this is structural. I think about this quite personally, psychologically, as if it were like part of my being. Whereas I think it's just like one of the challenges of being a sensing being in a structuring world. And I'm like, maybe this is about capitalism, which still feels very much like a personal exploration of how to be a soft thing in a... Yeah, I feel there's a tension field there, definitely, between also basically being and doing.

Like something like, it's great to be and experience and flow and notice yourself being in the world. And then there's this idea of a creative act, wanting to make something happen, making something, whatever it is. And that requires some form of structure, usually, just to make the thing happen. And I have struggled with this a lot when I was a composer. And I had this like, grand visions of like, yes, I want to make this fabulous piece. But then sadly, I had to go through the many, many hours of tedious work at my desk to kind of like, try to put that onto a page, which felt like torture very often. And that kind of structure was something that I forced myself into as well. So yeah, I'm just curious if this is related to this act of creation for you?

Or is there more to it than that? Is it more like a systemic thing?

Because you named capitalism? No, I don't agree with the doing. I don't think it's about doing, I think it's about willing. The thing I struggle with is not any more exactly doing. It was for a while, because they're so wrapped up. The only way I knew how to do things was to will things. Where there's a thought, and then I sit down and make the thought real. And I think at some point, there was like a realization that there's another doing. And that doing is like, not just following an impulse, maybe even gardening an impulse, but creating a life where impulse is likely, repeatedly. So that each one missed is not kind of like a world untold, but it's just one of many.

And the next one I will show up for, because I've prepared. And still, I think just this, it feels very fresh. Which is, I think, why I have such a resistance to this idea of it being about doing.

It's not, it's about willing. And that's also why when I hear your story about composing, I'm like, I think that is still willing. It's just willing yourself to do something. And I think that is still the thing that I'm trying to get out of. And I think a big part of it is like, willing myself into poetry, and it just doesn't work. It fucks shit up. Yeah, I'm really curious, though, because I love this image of gardening, and creating the circumstances in which a lot of impulses will arise. So that if you lose one, it doesn't matter, because you'll catch others, right? But then my question would be about larger scale things. If you have a vision about something that is composed of many, many different parts, is it possible for that to happen within that framework of following smaller impulses, while gardening the possibilities for them to arise? I don't know.

I'm curious what your vision is on that. I don't know either. I think I just know what's important for me to explore. And I think for me, what is important to explore at this point in my life, or maybe in this life, is just like a very respectful listening to quiet things in me and other people. And building big things out of that will just put that in such a shadow and make it so hard for me to do the quiet listening that I'm not turning to that question.

That question is not truly relevant right now. And maybe one day this becomes so intuitive and well scaffolded and well held by me and the people I love that it can grow larger. But I think this is also like a choice and a sacrifice. This is a stepping out of something. It's like a choice not to change the world in a big narrative or not to make like a real dent in history. And I think it took a long time to let that be legitimate. It still takes a long time to let it be legitimate. And that's what I mean with calling myself a poet. Letting it be enough that I've helped one person name one feeling that was there for 20 years, and then once they name it, and that's enough. And I'm really grateful to other people doing the big structure shit because otherwise there's no way we could have shared this meal this morning and so many other things.

Aloha, this was a true pleasure. Thank you so much for going on this journey with me. I feel like we could continue this conversation for quite a while, but in the interest of time, we shall stop here. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we part? This was really nice. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much. If you've enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe to the podcast. You can also read more of my thoughts on Twitter. I will post a link in the description. And if you are interested in improving your relationship with yourself, please subscribe to my email list at relatingtoself.com.

I will then send you meditations, rituals, practices, and more of these beautiful conversations. Thanks.