Relating to Self

Relating to self. A podcast that helps you create a better relationship with yourself.

Hey, I'm Joachim, welcome. Do you realize that there is only one relationship that you will always be in? The relationship with yourself. Improving that relationship changes everything. On this podcast, I share my thoughts and I invite real people to have vulnerable conversations about how they relate to themselves and what we can learn from that.

Nathan, welcome to the Relating to Self podcast. It's lovely to have you.

It's lovely to be here. I like this setting. We're in your kitchen in Berlin and we've transformed the kitchen table into a recording studio. And I think it's the first time I do like a location recording.

So that's fun. Nathan, just for context, who are you? That's an interesting question. I feel like it's so hard for me to answer this question.

It's like, what do you do? I could answer for a really long time or I could answer shortly and leave out almost everything and neither one of them feels like really right.

But let's see. I'll just look at you and try to talk what seems most relevant right now.

I'm a father. I'm a seeker. I'm an artist. I'm someone who's striving to grow. I suffer. I get petty. I feel overwhelmed. I relax. I open. I connect. I don't know if that's who I am.

I don't know if that's who I am. It sounds interesting for sure. I love that you included some of the things you're struggling with. You know, I think it's nice to have that as a perspective of not just naming the intentional things, the things that usually, you know, you want to do or you want to be or you want to feel. So I feel also that's quite relevant to the nature of this podcast.

So thank you for bringing that. So today we're going to talk about your relationship with yourself. And my first question is always the same. When you hear these words relating to self, what does that mean to you or what comes up? Oh, I have a probably very naive Buddhist concept of self.

Naive and like untutored, unsubtle. But the way that I think, what it comes up with me kind of inspired by that, when you say relating to self, me as awareness, constructing a self-world moment to moment in order to navigate and like move, to operate and satisfy the animal desires of the body, coordinate with others. Yeah. And then like relating to the self to me is like trying to construct, skillfully construct this self-world, like the self in the world and others. Tell myself stories or create a sense of self in a way that resonates with what I find to be good and beautiful and true. But like that has to, in order for that to be the case, it has to be sort of fluid so I can continually construct myself.

Continually construct myself. If I'm like, when I relate to myself as object and I'm like in a fixed self, like I'm inevitably not doing this thing that I'm trying to do, relating to self. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's like calling something into being in a skillful way that I need to, that I do whether I want to or not, whenever I'm not like in a deep meditative state. I'm always doing this thing and I'm trying to like do it well. I really like that perspective because I've always said that relating to self is not something we can't do.

Like it always happens. And the question is then, do we do it intentionally?

Do we do it skillfully? It's an interesting word. I never use it in that context. Or does it just happen and we go along with what naturally unfolds in our relating to self? So there's a couple of things I want to know more about. The first being, you started your exploration of relating to self with this concept of awareness. It's like I'm an awareness building this world of self and other. And I'm curious what that awareness represents for you. Because that's one of the things I've struggled with in Buddhism when I read things about that. It's like this idea of the perceiver being something in itself. And then I don't really know how to relate to that.

So I'm curious how you see that awareness. What is that awareness? What does it represent for you? Yeah, I suppose it's like, I mean, I can make metaphors, but I don't know. One that comes to mind is like a reader and a book. And then the book creates this whole world.

And there's this story going on. And there's all of this interaction and emotion and plot and everything else. But that's happening inside the reader. And I'm usually like, as a reader, if the book is good, I'm engrossed in the story that's being created and I'm in that. But I can also like, step back and look at the book and be like, well, okay, like, I suppose this is the awareness, the thing that like, the thing in which the story is happening, but that you can't really point to. I guess also like, I experience when I'm clear, like when I'm not contracted and caught in the story, I experience waking life as very similar to dreaming. And then there's like the dreamer, which I can lose track of by just being caught up in a dream or I can become aware of. I don't know if that, does that resonate with what you understand about this?

Or is it the same confusion? I like this idea of the same confusion as beautiful. Yeah. And it resonates with me. Like, I think I have a very similar perspective. I like the idea of the reader and the book, but that's a metaphor, right? Because then the thing I struggle with sometimes is that people take these metaphors and they make them real, or they think they point at like a reality of some kind. Right. And that's where I struggle.

I'm like, well, I can't really say anything about that. You know, there's no experience of that. So I tend to not go there. And I was just trying to understand how you stand there. Yeah. It's like, when I'm in a deep state of meditation and I just, it's hard to put into words, but I see the light behind my eyes or whatever I see when my eyes are closed and I hear the sounds and I feel my body and there's no story in it.

There's just those experiences. And I hear that there's even like, I don't, I haven't been to like such a non-dual state that even sense experience like shuts out. People tell me that have taught me how to go this part down the path, that that also is somewhere that one can go. And I don't know what that's like, but for me, it's even there. I'm like, oh, I see that all the story, there's no story there that's dropped away. And so whatever it is, that's creating that story doesn't feel as present or something created. The story doesn't feel as present.

So there's something beyond the story. That's I think where I get to the, from my actual experience rather than some kind of conceptual thing. Like conceptually, I think I've believed that since I was probably like, I don't know, a teenager. It's been sort of my default framework that like, oh, I was like, really into just everything is radically constructed, right? Like, but yeah, it's different when you start with phenomenology, you start with like, go to my experience and see my mind build stories. And then it's not really, I can talk about it as a metaphor, but like, I believe it or I experience it regularly. And that's where my practice brings me to see it happening and return to like letting go of it so that I can let go of it in my regular life as well. Especially letting go of it when it's fixed. Like I have to, as you were saying, kind of, I have to, I have to make a story and there is always a story when I'm not sitting without, in my deep meditation.

But how can I like let go? I can hold onto that story and be like, I know what's going on here and this needs to happen. Or I can hold onto it in a way that like, this is even more common for me to just ruminate on like, what should I do?

How can I solve this? What about this option? What about this option? And instead of just like, let go of that and be with like, okay, let's let stories emerge. Kind of the default mode network, just like throw up some more stuff and like, see what's, see what sticks, see what's good, but not, not try to grasp it. It's hard to talk about that.

Yeah, I hear you. Well, there's plenty of other things we can talk about, so don't worry. I'm curious about one thing you said though, because you said that that kind of framework reference already was within you when you were in your teens. And I'm curious as to, insofar that you had that framework, how did it maybe influence or create your phenomenology of what you then later experienced? Oh yeah, there's probably some kind of loop there. When I was like 11 or 12, somewhere early there, I started to have, I didn't understand at the time, but now understand as like awakening experiences. So experiencing like the, some like things being coming so, so loud that they were quiet. Like so many things like becoming so big that they were small, like this sort of experiencing the, I don't know, deep paradoxical things. Like, and they weren't, it wasn't like I, I became enlightened when I was, it's like, I was just having these experiences, awakening experiences that if someone would explain to me, I probably could have like parlayed into like, Oh, okay.

So this is just my spirituality. But what happened was it, it turned against, it turned me against the propositional fundamentalist Christians around me, who I saw as like hypocritically just spouting off some Santa Claus bullshit.

And that really socially isolated me. And no one had, was there to help me understand these experiences. And I didn't really talk to anybody about it either. But as, so I had the assumption, at least as a kid, that no one would be able to help me or see me. I think that's probably true in retrospect, but it's made me feel very isolated. I was afraid of going insane, like following, like looking in the mirror and repeating like me, me, me, me and the world just dissolving. And I'm like, what? Oh, okay.

I probably better not do this. I probably better not do this. You know, and in a context where you like, there was like an actual belief in like demon possession and things like this around. Like, so I was like very, very weird choice to, I mean, about choice depends on how you look at it. It's a weird place to have been. And I, but from that experience, I thought like, yeah, I kind of came into like not the beautiful thing I might have, which is like, oh yeah, you're actually like having an experience where you're starting to see through the story and into like more of a, how you can get in touch with reality, more the patterns that are in the world more directly, but you know, we have to sense into them. We can't grasp them and things that somebody could have told me all that. And what I came out with was kind of like a, like pit of the void nihilism, like, oh, everything is just a story and it means nothing.

There is nothing. It's all just, it's all just something you're telling yourself and that's it. And so that I think resonated deeply with my experience and then put me in this like collapse of like, there's nothing then like a sort of a meaninglessness and annihilation. I wasn't an actual nihilist, but like I kept collapsing into this like despair about nihilism is, seems to be the reality that I have to come to terms with.

I never came to terms with it. I just kept collapsing and feeling horrible about it. If I, I think if I would actually be a nihilist, I would just be like, well, it's kind of like almost sociopathic, like, and I never became sociopathic. I just became like severely depressed. Yeah. So I believe that it shaped my, I chose that way of looking because it fit my world, my experience. And then it started to shape my experience and it wasn't until like, I mean, long time later in my mid thirties, maybe I started to wake up to like feelings of, like that were outside of that. That was like, Oh, you know, like actually the things that you sense that are beautiful and good and true. Like there's something there. It's not just, there's not only stories, but there's also some resonance with something outside of the story that is there sometimes and isn't there sometimes and that you can follow this resonance and then like dimensionalized it for me somehow. Yeah. I love that.

What comes up for me is something like, there's a difference between this idea of everything is a story and everything is a story, but there's a difference between this idea of everything is a story and so everything is meaningless and something like a solipsism, like nothing besides me is real. Right. I think what you're pointing at is this idea that, okay, even if we are just stuck in our own stories, there's this other being in front of me with their own stories, but I can create resonance. I can, I can exchange something with this other being, and that can be a very joyful and beautiful practice. Yeah, sure. And I think outside of, outside of either one of us, there's a world in which there are real patterns that we can pick up on.

Like, I don't know. I mean, you do, you do music and you wrote music and when you write music, it's not like, there's one way to look at it. It's just like, oh, I just made these patterns. And so what the fuck, but like, sorry, am I allowed to swear on Yeah, please. But there's another way where it's like, if you really in the experience when like, you can tell, because sometimes you could just make patterns and you're just like, this isn't worth it.

There's nothing there. But sometimes you feel like compelled, like you're hearing it, like you're feeling into like, oh, but it's this, it's this and not that. And that thing, that sense, like is in the world. It's like, there is this beauty that's calling me forth to like, resonate with it and by making these marks on paper and having people play these sounds, not those sounds. And one could say, oh, well, this is just your own personal sort of, you know, quirks of aesthetic taste or whatever things you like, preferences. And like, in some ways, sure, I can't help but filter it through that. But also I've, it just feels to me like there is actually some kind of like beautiful pattern that I'm hearing and that I can call out of the void, or is calling me out of the void. I don't know which way you want to talk about it, but like, I kind of participate in this search and for these patterns that are beautiful. And they're not just beautiful in some kind of like preference, I think it's so sense. It's like, yeah, I don't know if you know this, like, one of the guys that I work with, John Verveke, have you checked him out? Yeah, I listened to part of his podcast with Tim Ferriss recently, but I found it quite hard to follow him.

He speaks so fast. Yeah. Yeah, he's like a mega theoretical nerd, but he's really got his finger on the pulse of something. And he calls this thing like transjectivity. So just basically, we have this idea in our culture, since especially Descartes, it doesn't, maybe we can leave out all of the, you know, philosophical details. Just imagine, most people think of there's an objective world out there. There's a subjective experience in here. And the two don't really have any kind of correlation to each other. Like, basically, there's an objective world described by math and science. There's a subjective world, which is all just emotion and illusion and stories and whatever I'm making up about things. And in some ways, they don't really even touch.

There's no way. How do they touch? They don't really touch.

And so like, all I'm doing is having some kind of delusion and hallucination about some kind of external world that I can't come into contact with. And I can, or maybe I can, but only through math and science. And then it's like this mechanistic way of interacting. And it's like, what if like, the poetry of my own experience participates in the external world and this transjective, like not subjective or objective, but this like participation and me shaping the world and the world shaping me, me resonating in the world, the world resonating with me, like co-coming into being is actually the thing. And this like, this is what I'm like, this is a, let's say, more naturalistic science-based or philosophical science-based version of the kind of spirituality that I eventually found. Where before I was really in this subject-objective divide, like, and felt like everything I think is just a story, just a story, like very emphasis on the just. And now I'm like, I'm participating in reality. And I can, I can train myself to, and this is where like, maybe this, how do I relate to myself?

I can train myself to be like, open. And then like following the resonance, because the other way of relating is like a kind of like collapsing, fixating on a certain, oh, it's this way, or these things have to happen. Like, I'm like very tight and small and narrow. Like in the cognitive science, John calls this like reciprocal narrowing or reciprocal opening. And I can train myself to be open. And if I'm open, I'm like hearing the music, like, so to speak, like feeling the resonance with patterns that are actually in the world. But I can't like, know them in the way of like propositions. I can't like collapse on them and know it. I have to just like stay open and keep listening and keep dancing with it. Yeah, yeah.

That's so beautiful, because that really resonates with me. I think that's very close to my own practice of living, I would call it, you know, this idea that there's this one book that I love by Haruki Murakami called Dance, Dance, Dance. And I mean, the book is not about that at all. But I think there's one passage in the book where the main character says something like, you know, whatever unfolds, whatever happens in life, we have only one choice. And that's to keep dancing, just dance, dance, dance with whatever comes your way. And I've always felt this was a very apt kind of image. And yeah, that's what I practice as well. It's like staying open and dancing with what comes, with what is. And then the questions of, you know, what is real, or something like that don't really matter so much anymore. Because that's something I used to be stuck on, like, like you very much, you know, this like, dualism and this mechanistic world view.

And I'm like, but yeah, but what is reality? Now I'm like, it doesn't matter at all. I can just be in the listening. And I can dance around and have a beautiful experience. And maybe even and then that's maybe where we could go next is something like, help shape a beautiful experience for others, who maybe are more still in the narrative of clinging to a certain experience of themselves in the world. And so that brings me to what you shared in the beginning that I thought also was really beautiful, that I've never thought of as such, which is this skillfully, skillfully being in the world. And I think you mentioned something like things that are good, beautiful and true. And so that sounds to me like something like a practical ethics.

Would you say that's accurate? Do you think about like, you know, what is a good life for you and for people around you? And how does that shape your relationship with yourself? I do. I do try to do to do that to cultivate virtue, cultivate virtuosity. I like that one. Yeah. But yeah, just knowing like what, what virtues to employ to what measure in what situation and like this sense for that. I try and do that. And on the other side of it, I try like, it's like there's the there's the active this this thing, which sounds really nice. And it's like, it is nice, but it's only half the battle because the other side is like, how do I unblock myself from doing that is just as important.

Like, because I'll collapse around like some strong emotion, like anger, fear, sadness will like come up. And if I don't know how to roll with it, like then suddenly, all of my all of the ways that I want to be virtuous, or like the ways that it can be when I'm in a more calm state or just like out the window. So I have to like train for those moments, like how to keep myself from like falling off and getting blocked, like blocking out all of that it can just like, really fall apart. And it's like my experience of it so far is getting to where those those moments of collapse or blocking, whatever you want to call it, like, are shorter and less frequent.

But they still come. But I have and so like, this is interesting. I don't know if this like takes us too far back to the thing. But so for me, like skillfully cultivating virtue is like doing this, like practicing being virtuous, and practicing like, getting out of this reciprocal narrowing collapse mindset when it comes. But getting out of it is importantly, as I'm learning over and over, not being averse to it and pushing it away. So it's like getting out of it is like a whole thing in itself about being with it and allowing it and like, moving through. Kind of, for me, one of the things that I've been learning is like, to expand my sense of time. Like when I learned how to cry really deeply, it was because I are, it's like trusting underneath the experience of pain right now, that there's an arc to this. And that it's not the desperation comes when it feels like I can't do this. It's forever.

And I can't. And if you trust like, oh, I'm going through this, this part of the arc now. And now I'm going through this and this sort of it's always changing, then you can maybe like not collapse at that point. I feel like I'm kind of like pulling on 1000 threads at the same time right now.

Yeah, but this is beautiful. And it's related to something I've recently experienced, which was I won, I was in that kind of state of collapse that you described, right? It doesn't happen often to me anymore, either.

But it still happens. And I think for the first time, I was able to see it as something necessary, something maybe I would even call good. That was really strange. So instead of resisting it and trying to get rid of it, I was like, No, I'm just gonna lean in to this feeling of despair and complete abandon of like, you know, nothing I do matters.

Nobody cares anyway, what's it all for? And I just kind of like stayed in bed, pulled the covers over my head, so to speak, and kind of wallowed in that deeply, trusting somewhere deep down, that there was a meaning to this. And I think the meaning was something like, like a grieving, almost. It felt as if I was allowing myself to deeply grieve this idea of things being meaningful, or, you know, me having an impact in the world or anything like that. And I think it was also as you described before this idea that a lot of the things that come up for you come from the past. I think was also something from the past. And so I allowed it to happen. Keeping in mind somewhere in my mind still was this idea that, you know, this too shall pass. And it only lasted for like a day and a half, which is a lot shorter than it used to. And I came out of it almost, like straight back to, to the dancing open self that I'm used to now, which was really interesting, because normally when I would go through phases like that, it would be like a huge transition, right? Because I would cling to the story and make in my mind, keep thinking about it, like, oh, you know, I'm bad or I can't do anything, whatever.

But now it was just like passing through that phase of this deep grief and despair. And then I've passed through the valley and I'm back somehow.

Ah, that's a good story, man. Very helpful.

Yeah, because I think, I think, I think there's some tiredness, weariness that comes over me sometimes when I feel like, there's a wish that there's like, at some point it's, you've gotten through it all. And now you can just, I don't know, maybe it's not even a happily ever after, but at least like all of that stuff is now, I don't really suffer anymore. And that, and so whenever then you're kind of in a bit of a good phase and then it comes again and you're just like, oh, fuck, like here I am.

Maybe I've made no progress. This is like the things that come up in me. Maybe this is just another time around the wheel. And like, all it is until I die is more times around this same wheel. And like, oh, it's so depressing. And so like, takes the, takes the energy out of like, where should I even have the energy to keep trying? Yeah, but what comes up for me is what if progress is not getting rid of those states, but what if progress is just acceptance that they are part of it, and that they have some kind of meaning that maybe we don't get or understand, but maybe there's something in the body or the psyche that needs this to happen. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, whenever I, whenever I really look at like, the different ways in which I've suffered in the past, there's a thing that a friend of mine, Cheryl Shu, a really interesting mystic lady, we were in a monastery together practicing and we were doing this experimental monastic container. And it was like, we were doing internal family systems.

And then we would like get into, like deep states of Samadhi and work with images of the exiles. And like holding them in Samadhi, like holding them in a... Could you maybe briefly explain what Samadhi is? Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, the word literally means concentration, but it's just the state of, it's not concentration, like usually we think concentration, we're thinking like a point, this is like a, a state of inclusion of all experience, and the dropping of the story. And it's generally like very, very pleasant, like pleasurable presence. And so you're with all of everything you hear and see and taste and smell and feel. And the proprioception and the sense of timelessness kind of takes over like, and then there's like this, because as the story drops away, you're just like deeper and deeper in presence, I suppose would be one way to say it. So sitting in presence, like in meditative presence, holding these exiles, these like imaginal figures of pain that are like stored in the body, and they come up with certain stories about like contractions about, yeah, I'm, I'm alone, or I'm hopeless, or I'm helpless, different kinds of things.

They have these little stories. So this is an imaginal practice, internal family systems, people might have heard of it to, to kind of access these pieces of the subconscious, that are usually also connected to sort of tensions in the body. And we would bring these out in this state of meditative presence and relaxation, and sit with them, and they and like allow them to so I have this like, I have this loneliness in me. And this little like, it's just it was just this little like, like slimy little cowering loneliness, that felt like it doesn't belong anywhere. And it doesn't have anyone to relate to. And it's just like, oh, and sitting though, in this like, presence, and just like allowing all of that to be there. It like sort of transformed into this other imaginal character. I mean, in some language, you could use be divinized, but like became like the divine aspect of it, whatever you want to say, I don't know. It's like, it became this eagle, and like soaring above the clouds and above the above towns and above the mountains and like in this nest, and like alone, completely alone, but like majestically alone. And like, sort of like, without the need for anything but its own like ability to like look down from above and survey and be and like is beautiful to be this eagle in this nest at the top of the mountains and like soaring around in my imagination, and in my body, and it was like, but it's the same thing.

Like, it's just the other side of the same thing. So it's like, if I got rid of the, if I got rid of the loneliness, I might rid myself of the slimy little pain, like this collapse. And the same time I would rid myself of this like majestic, beautiful eagle. I mean, these are images that I'm using, but like, they're somehow parts of my psyche, and parts of myself that I can't. So it just strikes me when you say this, it's right, like, you can't get rid of that without getting rid of that. Like, you can't get rid of the pain without getting rid of the beauty. So the only thing we need to get rid of is the judgment or the telling ourselves that, you know, this is a good or a bad thing.

This part is there. And I think most of the time, most of us would label aloneness as like a bad thing. And then we say we're lonely. But maybe aloneness is solitude. And it has a great power. Like you speak of this eagle, I think that's really beautiful. And so I guess, the only thing to do is to get rid of those labels of the labeling of like good, bad, maybe things just are, and then we can surrender to them and accept them and then see the different ways in which they can enter our lives. So that's a really beautiful way of treating an exile. I've never heard this before. Yeah, and this to me is this like, this skillful relation to the self, a skillful building of the self. It's like, so there are moments where like, I mean, it seems clear enough, why would I want to build a self that is this like majestic eagle of solitude?

Like, sure, that that will be very useful. And that's clear how that will be useful. It might be less useful, like, why would I build the self that I want to build? I might build a self that is the slimy, cowering, like, demon of aloneness. But there are moments where that's incredibly skillful. Like where I can feel into that, like I can empathize with someone else's experience of desperation and loneliness and isolation, because I have this part of me that I've experienced. And I feel that like, if I can be with that part in myself, then I can be with that part in them. And then even if they can't yet really be with it, like we can be with it. And so I might actually like, tune into this on purpose.

And it's skillful right now. So a lot of times in the past, I would tune into it, or I couldn't not tune into it, and it'd be overwhelming. So skillful is just like taking me away from everything that I care about, and I'm collapsing. But if somebody's in that state, and I can approach them and like be able to be with this. And then so I can build myself in a way that like resonates with that self, and then kind of like, solve the problem, like by being with it, and then relate to them from that space of like, being able to be with it. And like, I'm relating to them in a way that's like, helping to coax them into not like getting rid of their loneliness, but like in being able to be with it. And that's super skillful. So like, there's all these different ways that I might build a self in a moment, even in relation just to loneliness, that like, could be an appropriate good response to like what's in front of me. And the more flexible I can be, the more range I have, the more like, like, more I can just like flow with dance, dance, dance, right? And then I, I'm this is this is the skillfulness. Yeah. I'm loving this so much.

Nathan, this is beautiful, because I think you've just articulated what this podcast is. I think there's, I've never really thought of it like that before. But I guess the, the person I'm with can be the listener. And me sitting here having these conversations, while holding space for all these parts of myself that have been difficult in the past, and then the guests part, you know, who also have been difficult. And then someone listening to this, hopefully feeling something like, ooh, if these people have the capacity to do that, then maybe that's also possible for me. Yeah. And just, it's almost like co-regulation through time and space or something, right?

But I love that. That's, that's beautiful.

And I love also how you named this like increasing of your range of your capacity to then be with more kinds of people, perhaps, because you've had more experiences. And I love that. Yeah, thank you so much for that. We're approaching the end of this beautiful conversation. Always kind of sad about that. But I'm curious if there are any things that you would have liked me to ask a question about, that I haven't, like things that maybe you feel are important to how you relate to yourself that you would want to bring into the world? Hmm. I don't know, I guess like, there's a sense of like, what, what would I tell myself 20 years back? That I mean, that I could have heard, because I could have said the words, but I wouldn't have gotten most of it. And I think it's, I actually think it's around this question of like, you said that you like, almost in some ways, you like let go of this, like, sense of like, what's real or what's reality and just like just being with what's happening. And I think that like, I couldn't have done that back then.

And so I would recommend if somebody finds themselves in that position, like me, where I was, that you, you can also see these patterns that you can only sense into but can't grasp, and that are like lie only in resonance, but not in proposition. You can see them as the real, like, that there's realness in it. And you can feel the realness in it, because you know, it's this, not that. Like, if you let go of the idea that like, all of that's just subjective preference. Like, imagine, and there's no reason to, I mean, or go ahead and find a reason to argue against it. But it's just as true as it's completely subjective delusional preference. And from that nihilistic, relativistic point of view, just try on what if that's signal of the real. And like, it's a much better way to live. And it'll bring, at some point, I think it brings a sense of trust in something that otherwise is just missing. Without that sense of trust, our sense of like how we relate to ourselves is just a, it does, it can't, I can't grow without that sense of trust. So I, and then I feel like growth isn't possible, change isn't possible, everything is just a, you know, competitive, nihilistic shit show of capitalism.

And like, here I am a cog in the wheel. And like, it's a way of looking, but it's not a very good way of living. This other way, like, yeah, I wish I could understand exactly the words to put to my former self, that I could have like, actually heard it. And I still think I wouldn't have quite heard it, I would have still been like, yeah, but you're just being like, you're just romanticizing things. And like, sure, it'd be nice, but like, I can't live that way.

But it's like, practice, practice, practice. I love that perspective. And I think there's so much truth in that, like thinking about my former self, and what I would tell him, it's probably the same, I could have told him so many things, but what would I have heard back at that age? And I'm imagining maybe even people around me, or some people around me were pointing at those things, perhaps. And I just didn't have the capacity to see it. Yeah, I don't know, I think maybe in some ways, life needs to be experienced, to be understood in that way. I don't know, I think, I still think it's possible to kind of resonate with something you hear that is just a tiny bit outside of your comfort zone, or about what's known, which is also why I'm doing this podcast. But yeah, I love that.

Thank you so much for bringing that to the table. And if our former selves are now listening to this conversation in some way, I think practice, practice, practice is a pretty good compliment to dance, dance, dance. Nathan, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. It was my pleasure to talk to you. So read more of my thoughts on Twitter, I will post a link in the description. And if you are interested in improving your relationship with yourself, please subscribe to my email list at relating to self.com. I will then send you meditations, rituals, practices, and more of these beautiful conversations. Thanks.